Jungian Coaching Room Podcast EP4 – When We Gather

Written by Dana Kabaila

Brant raises the interesting point that Greek myths offer multiple destinations in the afterlife, such as the Blessed Isles (previously Elysium). While both Hercules and Persephone visit the underworld, Hercules ascends to Olympus and Persephone remains. The book uses this as an example of how Hercules may be uplifted in society and Persephone energy repressed. I am called to ponder this binary and wonder about the possible risks of the virtuous ascent to Olympus and gold in the shadow of the underworld adventure.

Brant’s book mixes two niche disciplines of the mythopoetic movement and the world of group relations. The former having been established to engage archetypal personal development by folk including Marion Woodman, Robert Moore, Robert Bly, Robert Johnson (“all the Roberts”, Brant jokes). The latter explored by Wilfred Bion who observed group dynamics in supporting people who had fought and returned injured in WWII. In this in-between space, exists the work of Paul Moxnes who explores group archetypes through a systemic lens (e.g. family systems approach). Brant reflects fondly on the influence of masterful practitioners who sometimes started as agitators and became mentors. This included Leslie Brissett who wrote the foreword for the book. While Brant left their first encounter “pissed off”, he described feeling grateful for having “just enough wisdom” to stay with the anger until it became insight.

At this point, I would like to pause and ponder the possibility of tension in this discussion too – neither conflict nor disrespect but some energy of different orientations. At episode 4, Brant was the first man I interviewed. It felt different to the women, all of whom were also practitioners in caring focused work. Listening back, I hear myself saying “interesting” a lot in this episode and I wonder if I am trying to show intellectual interest over the emotion exclamations that feel more native to me. I also heard a turning point where a creative space opened between our positions. Was this partly possible due to Brant’s experience with group relations?

I ask how I could become a nerd in group relations. I feel myself an outsider, wondering what hook might pique my interest. Brant describes the reflective practice available when grouped with strangers and the absence of explicit tasks. Without practical or familiar roles to fulfil, there is an often awkward and uncomfortable silence – a siren song to old patterns of behaviour to find ease. This description is enough for me to be sold on the intrigue of such an activity, and I feel my own imagination awakening. I picture a group as a symbolic beast with different group members playing the roles of body parts and organs. Who are the eyes looking ahead, who is smelling the scent of predators or prey, who is balancing through the tail or gripping through the claws? This evolved to externalizing the group roles further still. What if the group were a team of puppeteers with each manipulating a different part of the beast part – animating it into life?

In his own practices, Brant has swum in the symbolic. While on a meditation retreat, he has such an expansive dream that he feels could fill a novel. Brant credits his wife’s tuning into dreams in ways that offer cookie crumbs to follow in their life paths, regardless of some of his scepticism. I share times I have heard of people living together (e.g. couples) dreaming on behalf of each other. The book cover art has imagery described as nebulous, creepy, mercurial and ghostly, with stylings found in comics and graphic novels.

Previously, while working with teenagers, Brant learnt quick authentic and genuine connection skills – adolescents could smell any hint of bullshit and it led to lost respect For him, that included the need for firm, fair and supportive boundaries. For me this brings to mind the Circle of Security phase “Bigger Stronger Wise and Kind”. It also leads me to reflect on how my work in paediatrics has supported the child and adolescent parts with adults. I also try to look ahead to their possibilities as a future elder. Brant’s adolescent group work was grounded in 4 years of wilderness therapy (8 days in the woods every fortnight) in the 2010s. During this time, he was able to engage in creative freedom and intuitive practice where he saw the light return to young people’s eyes. He informs me that wilderness therapy is currently considered embattled” field.

After our chat, I read some more about wilderness therapy. I read about studies of young folk reporting positive impacts even two years later. Contrastingly, there are descriptions of cases involving involuntary youth transport, restraint, reckless and negligent practices. The variability of individual companies and practitioners seemed significant. Standardization has been implemented more recently to increase safety, which has also reduced flexibility and sustainability of programs. I have also heard about First Nation’s wilderness therapy guides in Canada being negatively impacted by increased tertiary study requirements that do not acknowledge their ancestral wisdom or lived experience in supporting their own communities resisting colonisation. It certainly isn’t a simple topic area.

Now my curiosity turns back to Brant’s dislike of the term “toxic masculine”. I am curious how he prefers to frame dominant discourse of problematic masculinity. Brant offers the “uninitiated” man as a term for the unhealthy masculine that acknowledges a problem and looks to the healing and development through initiation. My experience of women’s groups (whom I wish would include gender expansive folk) follows the stages of maiden (unto herself) mother/creatrix, maga/queen, and crone (crown/jewel). Men’s groups remain mysterious to me. Brant warns of the risks of men’s groups engaging in performative initiation that does not result in actual maturing or real life impact. He finds these spaces disillusioning and is committed to supporting deep work and generativity towards the initiated masculine. I describe an example from the book chapter Folk Psychology and Narrative Therapy where this approach develops amongst men in response to the knowledge and suffering of women in their lives. This reminds Brant of a gritty young adult book called Touching Spirit Bear that tells a story of male violence, tribal justice, council and experience. This Canadian First Nation’s story makes me think of First Nation’s Australian wisdom in practices including Women’s Business and Birthing Business, Men’s Business and Sorry Business at times of death and loss. In terms of trans representation in such groups, spaces welcomed ‘brotherboys’ and ‘sistergirls’.

We end with very sound advice to spend time alone in nature – two to three nights, pack what you need, notify a buddy, set minimal tasks and sit there. Maybe fasting. Maybe setting a perimeter to move within. This does not have to be the “hardcore” survivalist practices seen on the TV show Alone. Side note, Australia’s season 1 winner, Gina Chick, is an absolute legend – you could probably hear me getting very excited at that point of the discussion. Brant describes wilderness solo experiences as tapping back into the source, communing with nature, being in our bodies and disconnecting from the demands of technology.

If you would like to listen to the episode, you can do so here. You can purchase the book Gods, Heroes and Groups: Relational Dynamics through Mythic Archetypes discussed in this episode and follow Brant’s co-author Aodhan Moran on X @Aodhanpmoran.

Please share, like, and subscribe. I invite you to email me with any questions or reflections at dana.kabaila@iajcc.org. Our next episode “Lighthouse and the Whales” explores symbolic practices though different lenses and approaches, with space for free associations and reverie.